Simply Solving Cyber
This show features an interactive discussion, expert hosts, and guests focused on solving cyber security and privacy challenges in innovative and creative ways. Our goal is for our audience to learn and discover real, tangible, usable ideas that don't require a huge budget to accomplish. Shows like “How It’s Made” have become popular because they explain complicated or largely unknown things in easy terms. This show brings the human element to cyber security and privacy.
Simply Solving Cyber
David Gee Shares Keys to Cybersecurity Excellence
Unlock the secrets of a successful career in cybersecurity with our guest, David Gee, a recently retired industry veteran and author of "The Aspiring CIO and CISO."
Amazon: https://a.co/d/9FCsBQR
Packt (includes a promotion for the e-book version!): https://www.packtpub.com/en-us/product/the-aspiring-cio-and-ciso-9781835469194?srsltid=AfmBOooJFrNzjkRT_cLx3ux-ErfFownjl1EMB-dTupfrpBtI7QMw8103
David takes us on a captivating journey through his diverse career, sharing transformative experiences from working across the US, China, Japan, and Australia. Discover how he navigated the complexities of being a CIO and CISO in different industries, and learn from his unique insights into continuous learning and adaptability. David also unveils the SKB (Skills, Knowledge, Behavior) assessment tool he used to foster talent development and promote diversity at Eli Lilly Japan.
In our engaging conversation, we discuss the evolving role of a modern CISO, where the balance between technical know-how and soft skills is crucial. David, Cody, and Aaron dive into common misconceptions about the CISO role, particularly the narrow focus on technical skills alone. Through anecdotes about bot attacks and the Colonial Pipeline incident, we highlight the critical need for strategic thinking, stakeholder management, and effective communication. These stories underscore the importance of having a well-rounded skill set to thrive in the cybersecurity realm.
As we wrap up, we reflect on the art of making career decisions that resonate with one's passion and promote long-term growth. The implementation of SecureCard Warrior at HSBC serves as a case study for setting clear objectives and achieving data-driven outcomes. David generously shares personal insights about aligning career choices with personal values and finding true fulfillment. Join us in this enlightening episode, where we celebrate David's global perspectives and express our deep appreciation for his valuable contributions to the cybersecurity community.
Thanks for tuning back in to Simply Solving Cyber. I'm Aaron Pritz.
Speaker 2:And I'm Cody Rivers.
Speaker 1:And today we're here with David Gee, who I was honored to work with a number of times back in the day. I think I first met David when I was working at a large pharmaceutical company, eli Lilly, and if I remember right, david, I was on a audit in Lilly, japan if I remember right, and we met there and then got a chance to work with you years later when we were both in the US affiliate. So nice to see you again. I know we've kept in touch, but nice to see you and, more importantly, have you on the show and give some others a chance to hear a little bit about your journey and your background.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Aaron. If I recall, that was probably a Sox order, if I recall rightly, and then Sox was a big thing I tried to avoid the Sarbanes-Oxley.
Speaker 1:I was the privacy guy.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, got it.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, yep, awesome. Well, david, we always like to start out with the backstory and obviously the high points, because you've had a long, illustrious career. But tell us a little bit about you and then we'll want to make sure to touch on the new book. You've recently retired and wrote a new book that I have on my desk back here called the Aspiring CIO and CISO, and I know it's done really well with a lot of interested people and kind of advancing their career in this space.
Speaker 3:Thanks, aaron. Look, I've retired about 100 days ago and so I think the book's been on sale literally I've flagged it for a minute for 100 days and, as you can see, it's all about. You know people who aspire to be a CIO and CISO and for me it was part of my journey, and so my battle scars are actually things I put in the book, and so journey and so my battle scars are actually things I put in the book. Um, and so I think one of the things I've alluded to is there is sort of I had this sort of transformation career.
Speaker 3:I've been sort of a transformation, cio, transformation, you know, cso, and and transforming myself in terms of working in different industries, and so I'm a bit unusual, I guess, in that regard, because I look back at you know, I've worked in, uh, five countries the US and China and Hong Kong and Japan, a couple of times each, even in three cities in Australia and across.
Speaker 3:I've met life and insurance Lilly, you know, ceo in the US, japan, china, australia, et cetera. But I've also worked in HSBC as a CISO and building products and print media and television and so forth, done all kinds of different things, and to me it was always part of my career design principles was not to be stuck in any one place and pivot and move and keep learning. Continuous learning is really important because I think we can make a self-redundant if we actually keep focusing on sharpening our sword. So it's sort of now enabled me to move from place to place. I think we can make as a redundant if we actually keep focusing on sharpening our sword. So it's sort of now enabled me to move from place to place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to disappoint any listeners in any country, but if you had to pick out of those five countries, where did you most thrive? What did you enjoy the best, both personally and professionally?
Speaker 3:Wow, that's a really hard question. I've done so many fun jobs and hard jobs. Right, think honestly the cso drills. I've done 20 years as cio and then three years as the cso with hsbc and the last three and a half years I've been ending up uh, cyber, cyber risk and tech risk for um, australia's largest investment company, mahari. Um, each of those has different sort of challenges. I guess, aaron, I mean lifestyle-wise, living in Japan is the best because the food is amazing, the place is amazing, work is the hardest. People just don't go home. So you know it's a combination of work-life balance. You don't have any work-life balance in Japan, but really amazing lifestyle, just hard work.
Speaker 1:But have any work like balance in japan, but, um, really amazing lifestyle, just hard work, but I think I've had some fun in the place I've worked in. That's awesome. Um, so, david, I want to ask you a couple questions about your book and um, the one thing and I love a good venn diagram, but the skb or skill experience, knowledge, behavior assessment can you tell our listeners about that? And the reason why I'm interested in this today is, as Cody knows, I'm listening to an audiobook called you Can't Send a Duck to Eagle School and it's about motivational fit and skill set and people you know, having the right people, skills for the jobs and customer success and all those things. But I really like this diagram Can you talk about?
Speaker 1:what it is and how individuals can use it to help understand where they are at in a role or a specific job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just a bit of background, aaron. I think Lily, japan was CO there and Chief Privacy Officer at the time, and we were suffering from talent in the organization, both within IT and also more broadly in the organization, and we were very male-centric. We didn't actually hire anybody that wasn't Japanese men, and so we could have said, actually, how do we grow that talent? So actually the CEO at the time, my boss, said look, let's go and actually have all of us become the trainers, not some funny consultant. So some guy came to train and so the SCED process skills, knowledge, experience, behavior is something we actually taught to our team. So we said, okay, we want you to be really good at your development plan and you own that, not us, but we want to make sure that you understand what's required. And so if you think about this being circles and skills, knowledge, experience and behavior, sort of the whole thing, right, all of us focus on skills and knowledge when we're young in our career, want to be really good at you know java, programming or large language model, prompt engineering etc. And then have knowledge about large language models, but then we actually understand that actually as you get more advanced in your career, what matters more is actually the other side, the e and the b, which is experience and behaviors. And so what we talk about is how do you try to design your own career and saying I'm thinking two jobs ahead? So if I'm talking to you or Cody, I'm saying two jobs ahead of where you are now, what is that person above me, he or she, doing in terms of experience and behaviors that I'm not doing and trying to map that out?
Speaker 3:So in some case you might say, okay, that person's uh, the cio, and that person's doing a you know global it strategy, right, how can I volunteer to do a stretch assignment? How can I volunteer to be involved in in that? Maybe I can't do it by myself, but I can get involved in that by volunteering, by telling them I'm interested in learning about strategy and helping the process. So you're trying to find ways to start to role model those experiences and also see the behaviors, because what really matters is that behaviors. And I'll give you a great example I'm doing recruiting now as one of my advisory roles and we're trying to find a CISO and cyber managers, executive managers in a few banks, and so we put forward a short list and they never come back and say, oh, david, you've got the wrong skills and knowledge.
Speaker 3:They come back and say, actually we're not sure about that person's experience or behaviors. And so what's really important is the higher you go, is to have those right experience and behaviors and try to build it out. So, trying to find one skills, one knowledge, one experience and behavior that you need to actually identify for yourself, and then you can, you know, and I think in detail. I put some in my book, I put some you know my embarrassing gaps and say how's that work on my own gaps for the last you know, 20 years to overcome that and make it no longer understood as be a gap. People think it's a strength. Now that's awesome.
Speaker 2:That's really cool, david. I think too, you know, in looking at like modern CIOs and CISOs, and I think that's a great kind of homage because it's always the knowledge is there and the skill set. But it's like it's not just what you believe and what you know, it's like how do I influence others in different departments and other leadership to get on board with this idea? Because you're spending a lot of money, there's process changes and things. So talk about some of the challenges you've seen you know as people overcome that. So I think that is a gap that you kind of see. But how does one overcome that if there's technical aptitude there? But then the challenge may be leadership and influencing others.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a really good point, cody. You, cody, having that executive presence and poise is clearly around communication skills and being able to go to a boardroom or go to a management committee and say no, not say yes, but say no. Saying yes is easy, right, but the fact is that in cyber or as a CIO, you never have enough resources, you never have enough budget to do what you need to do, and so there's always going to be a rationing and there's always going to be someone you say I'm sorry, I can't do that, or actually that's going to be my number 10, not my number one. Okay, so for me, that's the part of things that I talk about in my book a lot about soft skills, and so many people in technology are really good at the skills and knowledge, but they don't practice their soft skills, you know, which is sort of a strategic thinking, ability to influence, as you mentioned, right, how do you then negotiate?
Speaker 3:How do you then manage stakeholders so they don't feel that it's a lose-lose, it's maybe a win-win and my win is delayed. So there's sort of soft skills that are really, really important, and I think all of us can't be. I think I talk about in my book 10 soft skills. We can't be good at all 10 things Some of those 10 will be sort of weak at and we need to make sure we can try to develop other ones to overcome high-dose weakness if we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that you and actually think, uh, on one of your slides for an isaka event you've got, um, top five skills.
Speaker 1:And then the next slide is plus five skills to get to ten. Um, I like that because there's so many, you are right you can't be, you know, be the master of all of them, um. But I also like that you're talking about soft skills because I've seen so many like especially on linkedin echo chambers of cso's that are arguing over, like I have a SecOps background and I've been in a SOC and I literally have heard CISOs say if you've not worked in a SOC, you're not a credible CISO. And I know SOC technology. I've done projects in and around SOC but I've not been a SOC operator and I would argue I've been, maybe effective in different ways, but I think any myopic technology skill set thinking is usually mired in the skill set that the person arguing it has. And most everyone well, not everyone, many folks at the CISO level are arguing about the wrong things. I'd rather be arguing over these top 10 things and which to prioritize for a specific role or person than like which tech skills are going to make you a better CISO.
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, the modern CIO and CISO have got the same challenges right. It's stakeholder management, it's regulatory management, it's all the above. So being an amazing DevSecOps person or pen tester, it's all the above. So being a amazing devsoc ops person or, you know, pen test, it's all great. So that's all great foundational bits. But actually what gets you promoted and gets you noticed, keeps you a job, because they, you know, get the job?
Speaker 3:One thing, keeping the job is the other thing. Right, so you want to get beyond your two or three years, which is the average, right? Um, how do you do that is by having great at your stakeholder management, which is soft skills, which is trying to make sure they're not too disappointed when you say no. I think one of the things I've talked about in my book, aaron, is their first 90 days, and I learned that actually early because I think, at the end of the day, I did five CIO jobs in 15 years, so every three years I was being moved to another place. And then not only did I do a strategy, I had to rebuild the team from scratch and leave my successor, find a successor, make the organization stronger and then leave behind a successor, which is sort of unusual. In this day and age People don't do that, but I did that because that was my pattern. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:That's interesting and it makes them focus as well you know chief privacy officers and a lot of those relationships sometimes are not starting in healthy spots. Or you know privacy versus cyber arguing over like not monitoring any data from a privacy standpoint and really needing some data to understand if your data, your IP, is walking right out the door. So give us your thoughts and tips on negotiating and influencing and building those relationships.
Speaker 3:Listen, I think I can talk about identifying where the examples are. Lots of cases where you've got to stick to the facts and you take a position which is, I think, we need to be here, and so you talk about two examples. One case was just a while ago, but it was HSBC and we had a bot attacked, actually in America, on our mobile banking system. And so, you know, we did some research and said, oh, actually that's really bad. Bot protection did not exist at HSBC in America at the time. And so we then said actually, oh, we, the same um software versions in four countries, in my, my part of the world, in asia, pac. So you know, go back to the ceo and said, by the way, um, we got a bot attack here, we need to actually put in some mfa, and we could put in mickey mouse mfa, which is, you know, the capture stuff, which is that much code and that takes five minutes.
Speaker 3:Um, I'm not asking your opinion because these are cios that I used to be a ceo right now, oh, no, my customer experience so important that I can't do this, I said, sorry, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you um, you can only negotiate when not yes or no, um, because this is actually a serious situation that your whole, you know, digital experience will break down, like the US has, and so that was quite interesting, because they were my old peers, right, the CIOs, who just said, oh no, we can't do this, it's impossible. And I was like what do you mean? And so this you know many examples like that, where people have got a view of the world and you've got to just change that. I mean, another case was just asking questions about tell us what was the colonial pipeline? Was it May 2021? It was right.
Speaker 3:So, I came across this. I was at four in the morning. I was up early with my iPad and I pinged the sock later and said okay, this is really interesting. Can you tell me about the IOCs for DarkSide? How do we capture that? And look, you're busy now, so just come back.
Speaker 3:Eventually, after a few weeks I said look, can you show me your playbook? Because he didn't come back to me. He showed me your playbook and I was horrified how bad it was and said look, let's go and work and rebuild that and let's test it, because you haven't tested it right. And so that says I was actually a risk person asking the size and his team. And then eventually we rebuilt that ransomware playbook. And then we were then asked six months later by the board. The board says, hey, can you show us your playbook? Can you show us? Have you tested it? Show us your results.
Speaker 3:And we did a page turn, page by page. And I then turned and said by the way, aren't you happy? We did this because we would imply both of us. We implied right and and so that was it's it's kind of tricky right because you, you wanted the right thing. Um, not throw people on the bus, because that's the wrong thing to do, um, but but how do you progress the organization and that this is the right thing to do, then actually it's not a negotiation. We're just going to say the facts speak for themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, david, that's great. So a question I like to always ask our guests are a couple of things. You kind of already alluded to it. I think you'll have a great answer for this. I'm kidding you up for a great answer right here. But over the years you know there's a lot of focus on technology and tools, but at Reveal we have a lot of belief in like people and process and the things that enable the tools. So, thinking over your career and your tenure, is there a time that sticks out when, like a process or people won the day versus a specific technology?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's always that, and I mean the tech piece, um, hsbc spent a billion dollars on on tech transformation over four years, okay, and so we were just buying everything, um, and and, as you know, right, it's about embedding the processes and having the people understand the stuff. So a really, really good example maybe is actually that we'd bought something called SecureCard Warrior for DevSecOps, and that was part of the journey, and HSBC had 25,000 developers 25,000, just a lot of developers right across mainly India and China, but all over the world. But the two centers had probably 20,000 developers. And so I said that's great, we've spent all this money on licenses. And so you're telling me that actually, we've got great DevOps, but we've got about 20% of our code being scanned and about 20% of our staff have been trained in this stuff. Even though we have licenses for 25,000, we haven't given a carrot or stick. We've given them three iPads and all this nice carrots to go and do this stuff.
Speaker 3:And I said, well, no, no, you've been screwing around for two or three years. Here I'm going to mandate this. I'm going to say we must have everybody trained as a white belt 25,000 people for the next six or seven months, and we have 10% of those people as yellow belts and and I'm going to start hounding every CEO that owns these developers and so we get it done by December, right? So to me, that was actually got the tech. Let's get people in place, let's put in some structure to say identify sort of a yellow belt, white belt, green belt, black belt, and we sort of say, here's how we get to the black belt level. You need to be good at this and you need to have, you know, be mentoring people and embedded in the pods and, you know, try to put that whole mechanism.
Speaker 3:And also, by the way, we don't want 20% of scanning 80%, 80% of code is probably the best practice, right? Let. We don't want 20% of scanning 80%, 80% of code is probably the best practice, right? Let's go towards that. How do we do both the theory and also the practice to advance at the same time? That was fun. We got there. We got to 95% in six months. That's excellent. Yeah, it's all about data right and making people accountable to say sorry, aaron, why haven't you done it? Why is your team behind?
Speaker 2:You're not tracking towards your number and making them accountable. That's awesome, that's really really good. So kind of following that, that's over the time you spent. But let's say you're going to get one phone call tomorrow. I've got a special cell phone I get to hand you and you get to call yourself 20, 25 years ago, early in your career. What are one or two things you're telling yourself that you've learned, that you say, hey, if I can call myself 25 or 20 years ago, what are you telling yourself?
Speaker 3:So I'll go back to 30 years ago, cody, because 30 years ago I made a decision to be a CIO and I was tossing up. I walked into a garden it's in my book, actually. I walked into a garden in Kodlowanji in Kyoto and it's the most famous sand garden in the world, and in this garden there are 13 or 14 rocks that are positioned strategically and you sit there and look at the rocks and contemplate life. I walked in with three job offers, right, and two was to be consultants. One was to be a partner with EY and I was 35 years old and sort of. You know, I'll be a partner next month, you know and they gave me a signing bonus and all the nice put me through an MBA and, you know, studied to all the US. They were throwing it at me. Right At the same time, lily was saying to me hey, come be a ceo with us and we'll send you over to world, maybe send you through an mba, and then afterwards send it china and japan or us, which is what I did.
Speaker 3:I became ceo for china, australia, japan, uh, asia, pac, us, etc. Um, that that was the decision I made then. So to me sitting that garden 30 years ago I was like I'm making the right decision here. I'm chasing, um, a career, not money, you know, not money and status, because probably more money and status now to be a partner than to be a CEO for a little Australian company not the US at that stage. But for me it felt right. It felt like Lilly was a great company doing great things for health. I felt aligned with that.
Speaker 3:I said, okay, I want to do this. This sounds like a really interesting opportunity for me to take on. And so back to your question. It's around, you know, back yourself because you know if your instincts are right, you know, try to make those right decisions. Um, don't do it on dollars, do it across. You know the whole gamut around your family lifestyle, um, learning ability, you know, because I, I, I think you know that what turned me off being a partner in a law firm sorry, e-wife consulting was I felt at 35 I'd retire mentally retire. I'd be then protecting my turf, trying to protect my income and revenue, and not keep learning new things, and that scared the hell out of me. I didn't want to get to the stage of retiring at 35 mentally.
Speaker 2:That's great. I mentor a lot of young men and women in cyber and IT. I feel like cyber is kind of nebulous to get in from the outside. Sometimes people think you have to be technical to get into cyber. I think that's really cool of what you said. I would totally agree that. Focus on learning and growing and the value will find you. But you chase the dollar. Sometimes those paths end and then it's hard to pick up again. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's hard to also just kind of a comment on that. I've seen people for the money in the wrong job and the motivational fit is clearly off and it's if you can't find your passion from what you're doing, um, and wake up every day and get excited about it and continuously want to learn. If you're, if you're just distracting yourself and getting your through, it's getting through the day uh and kind of bumping along, you're not going to probably achieve your goals, you're probably not going to be overly excess, uh, successful and even if the money is there, it's probably going to plateau. So I totally agree with everything everyone's saying and again, I've probably at certain points in my career been in the points where it's oh, this is the wrong job, this is the wrong fit. And the sooner that you can know that and kind of make that pivot to get back to something that's more getting you into a place of thriving, the better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is Aaron I think I talk about in my book and I often sign these covers and I write you know, um, keep striving to be uncomfortable and comfortable means more growth and and it's kind of counterintuitive. But actually, if you are comfortable, you're going to just sit there and and you float because it's easy. Right, life's easy versus actually I don't know what I'm doing. I need to learn fast. You know, I've got. The great example I talked about in one of my chapters is around being a CISO at HSBC and volunteering to be a CISO after being a CIO for so many years to say I can keep doing a CIO role, but actually I'm bored with that. I don't know. 20 years. I want to, you know, do something different. And so to me, you know, being a CISO where I don't know everything, I need to learn fast and I need to um, engage the business and get them to help transform. Um and the team to transform was the challenge for me. It's excellent.
Speaker 1:Yep, um, david, hold that book back up for a second. I do have one question, so I've got my copy. If, if individuals order the copy. Uh, I'm a skier and I see the gondola. Will you guarantee our listeners that they will be on a fast track gondola to the top of their mountain? Is that the? Is that the imagery it's?
Speaker 3:a really interesting question.
Speaker 3:I I'd um when I designed the cover is this sunday morning and and I was thinking about, okay, blue sky, you know that further you go up the mountain, um, it gets kind of cold and sharp rocks and it's not very nice, which is what it's like in the C-suite, okay. And so I got up to the publisher and sent me an iStock photo access and I went on their little search with sort of AI not really good AI and I'm looking for a gondola that goes left to right, that's up, not down, and I want a blue sky background and I want this sort of snow and whatever. And I picked about five different pictures and showed my wife she was still sleeping, it was six in the morning and then when the artist got this he said oh, you know, I've removed the safety line, david, because it made the photo look kind of ugly. I said, no, no, it's great because there's no safety line in these jobs. Right, you just fall.
Speaker 3:But I think at the end of the day, the guide is meant for people to help them. Not everyone wants to be at the very top. Some people actually are okay to be at base camp because, you know, further up the mountain, the Everest right, there's no oxygen, it's life-threatening. So Basecamp's okay for some people. So a lot of people read the book and say I don't want to be a CIO or CISO, but I want to be close to that role, and so the book's more about actually how do you become the best version of yourself and grow yourself beyond where you think you could be. And so, if I look at my own career, have I gone further than I thought I could? Absolutely, and I think I've also coached people to the same point where they didn't believe there could be a CRSU. So I've coached them to believe that by actually then them understanding, identifying what is it I'm not doing and how do I round out those rough edges that otherwise would stop me being a CRSU I love that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know. The only analogy that you might throw in there is the gondola has one one compartment going up and one going down, and there's a joke or something in there about like, for those that get near the top and don't like it, they might either choose to ride back down or be sent back down.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it was. It was interesting. There's probably not seeing the details here, but there was, um when, when the, the photo came back, actually the the actual version going down had no one inside it and I asked the artist to add it back in again. Because the reality is, as you know, some people choose to go down right, you might say, for lifestyle, for family health reasons, I want to go up and I go down. I talk about this using the elevator's analogy, actually in my book, which says that sometimes you're open to the person calling person calling you to the doors open, or doors closed, or you actually just take your boss, you press that panic button. There's different mechanisms, but up is not always the answer. Sometimes down is okay as well, cause it depends what you're looking for in that sort of holistic viewpoint. Great points.
Speaker 2:That's excellent, david. We have one more question for you Very, very important question here. So for all of our listeners, I want to give them the VIP access and say give us one fun fact of David that maybe everyone wouldn't know. So share either a story, a fun fact, but give our listeners something special here that's not super public knowledge about you.
Speaker 3:I met him when I was 20 years old, and so for me, being married at 20, at university, doing odd jobs pizza, bar man, whatever it was to make money. But then to me then saying okay, I want to go and support my family, I want to go and buy a house and do all the right things, but inside I had this drive not to ever be stuck in my job, never to be stuck in one company. So when banks offered me a job, I thought I can't take that, because the banks will offer me a job and I'll have this half-priced loan I'll never be able to leave. So I ended up working at banks later in my career. But it working in banks later in my career. But it's kind of intuitive, right, because the safe answer is to go to the safety which is take the job with the seven percent loan, not 15 percent loan, and because it's it's it's it's a high incentive. But I said no, no, I'm going to resist that. So to me the fun fact is around know yourself, know what you know what, what drives you. For me it was actually. I know, if I make myself into a comfortable position, I get get lazy and floppy right, and I needed to keep pushing myself and so that was sort of a fun fact, katie, that helped me drive.
Speaker 3:And I think being a young dad also meant that I had to learn how to teach my son things. So my son, at the age of 12, could read books, he could play the violin, he could swim, because we did all this things with him. So my, my son, um, the first music he heard was was mozart, and he didn't. He didn't talk about dogs, he talked about this is a wind mariner, this is a dacha. You know we.
Speaker 3:He saw books on monet and this is the age of 12 months, by the way. He saw manet, he saw picasso, we showed him things because we said we don't we're doing here, and I realized very quickly that actually all the techniques I learned to teach my son to enhance faster than schools just, you know, you don't get to school until you're five years old. Right at one years old he could read right and and. And I said actually you know what all of us can actually enhance ourselves if we choose to. We've just been told you're not that good, david, or you are that good. And I learned early in my life that actually these guys are all wrong. They got it all wrong. You can break these molds and that's why I've kind of done my own things in my career and written books and things that people probably thought they never could do, because I always challenged myself and wanted to never be put in that little box. That's excellent.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Well, sir, I want to thank you again. This has been a great episode and we appreciate you spending the time with us. We know you're very busy and blessed to have you here on the US side for a little while this side of the globe. So thank you again for the time.
Speaker 1:And lovely Vegas. Maybe he's in Paris now. He could be, you know, at the Sahara desert. No, I think that that casino went under. So thanks so much, david. Appreciate it, thank you. Thanks, david Cheers.
